tanto nomini nullum par elogium -- just kidding... RSS 2.0
 Thursday, November 15, 2007

I happen to have worked on a nice framework to build WS-* services.  I happen to have worked on a nice framework to build REST services.  It turns out the same framework can be used for NET-* services too.  It also turns out the same framework can be used for MSMQ services.

Actually now that I think about it, the framework I worked on can be used to build just about any kind of service you can dream up -- even whatever REST++ is called (trust me, there will be a REST++).  That wasn't an accident, it was the plan. 

We can debate the relative value of all of the above approaches, but the only thing I care about is the ability to communicate data between potentially heterogeneous parties in whatever way possible.  WCF does that, so I am happy. 

That said and at the risk continuing to be labeled a WS-* fanboy, there is a lot of value in what was done in WS-*.

There is the business value.  Think about the world in 1998-2000 (when all this got started).  The conversation used to be about what Java application server you were going to use.  Now it is about how you are going to build your REST or WS-* (SOA) services (implementation details are somewhat interesting, but not the key point anymore).  The Web did a lot of this, but WS-* helped change that whole conversation, especially in the enterprise.

There is the technical value.  Yes, there is some.  The key thing for me is writing down the 'model' for the service.  What are the messages, what are the transmission requirements, etc.  With these 'models' in place, you can do some really interesting things (WCF does somethings here, but we are looking at taking this to a whole new level in some of the other work we are doing). 

Sure, there are things I wish I could have changed.  I do wish we had seen the importance of GET earlier.  I do wish we had seen that pure binary payloads without the Infoset are just fine.  I do wish we had had simpler formats to write down the 'models' (XSD & WSDL (and maybe even XML) just don't cut it).  We have already addressed the first two in WCF and we may have something in mind around the last. :-)

That all said, I think we have delivered significant value to both the industry and our enterprise customers in the form of WS-*.  More importantly, we have well served all of our customers, including those using REST, WS-*, and even customers still using DCOM, with WCF.

I think this may be my last post on this whole WS-*/REST thing.  If you just use WCF, everything is fine.  If you can't use WCF and you are in a enterprise, you should consider using some product that supports WS-*, especially if federated security, transactions, reliable messaging are important.  If you can't use WCF and you are in the Internet, you should consider using some product that has a nice HTTP stack (nee REST).

As for me, I am clearly working on something else.

WS-* is to REST as Theory is to Practice

Thursday, November 15, 2007 8:33:31 PM (Pacific Standard Time, UTC-08:00)  #    Comments [2] -

Friday, November 23, 2007 7:06:13 AM (Pacific Standard Time, UTC-08:00)
I've found the use of WCF in the .NET development community is pretty low, in as much as people really *desire* to learn and use it. Most people are comfortable day to day with using basic HTTPWebR* and the like as that fits their need. WCF adds abstractions that most of the web already had covered, and it makes things harder to deal with.

Personally, I wince at the time/money spent of what is effectively a cleanup/amalgamation of a comms stack. The extensibility on extensiblity WCF offers for most people in this area smacks of a science project. It won't be the last time that something that is a mis-step on what people actually needed.

The problem seems to be that Microsoft built WCF but then Microsoft doesn't really *use* WCF. You did it the wrong way around, with groups like Live.com not particularly benefiting (well, not compared to the amount of budget/time/noise that was made about it). My impression was that you had a smart group of people wanting to make their mark on the MSFT org, rather than having real customer issues to resolve.

The thing that caused me to comment here is my incredibility that the same group of people feel they can offer a 'Smalltalk 2' business programming 'paradigm' to the masses.

Your team don't build real apps that do real things, and most of you never have. I am sure you are all smart, but again and again you'll spend longer than you should building things that aren't really desired, solving problems you think others have without any real experience of them.

What you build may get used due to evangalism/marketing and 'have no choice at where I work', but you are not adding *meaning* or value to computing. Whatever you build won't be used to build something that Microsoft sells. You always do it the wrong way around, you try to imagine what others are finding hard and then just starting again.

Your team is a microcosm of how Microsoft has lost it's way, and why Google/Facebook are where people want to be. A lot of the word has practical problems fixed by people that understand the issues, not just some make-work for a group looking for some budget.

You probably think I'm trolling, but I care about Microsoft. Is it possibly you're making the same mistakes again?
Anon to Keep Job
Friday, November 23, 2007 9:16:52 PM (Pacific Standard Time, UTC-08:00)
It is a shame that you think you need to remain anonymous to keep your job.

Having a good set of informed opinions discussed in the open without fear is goodness.

I would love to hear more specifics.

You make a lot of assertions here that I would love get your supporting data for, as I have a good deal of countervailing data.

So if you are open to it, email me at douglasp@microsoft.com and we can talk.
Comments are closed.
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Douglas M. Purdy
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